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Joe Everybody, a modern day man with average knowledge (high school and Wikipedia) in biology, medicine and chemistry, wakes up in an medieval city. He sees a lot of sick people and remembers about antibiotics and how penicillin was discovered.

Is it possible for him to rediscover and produce any antibiotics with the common technology in these times?

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    $\begingroup$ I've actually thought of this question a few times, I'm surprised I never asked it here. However, having seen your question, I suddenly realized a major complication with all time travel stories. Your the inspiration for my question: worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/13430/… $\endgroup$
    – dsollen
    Commented Mar 31, 2015 at 14:02
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    $\begingroup$ No, because you have vastly overestimated the knowledge of the average person in present-day society, even limiting the selection to the first world. $\endgroup$
    – jamesqf
    Commented Mar 31, 2015 at 18:16
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    $\begingroup$ @jamesqf that's why I've got a rotating set of the best shirt ever - just in case I get sent back in time. Of course, an engraved credit card form factor with magnifier would work better... but, hey t-shirts are fun. $\endgroup$
    – user487
    Commented Mar 31, 2015 at 21:32
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    $\begingroup$ Questions about the actions of characters are off topic for us. You should know it by now. $\endgroup$
    – L.Dutch
    Commented Oct 18 at 7:51
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    $\begingroup$ "With only a couple of years left before 1351..." did you mean before 1348, when the plague reached England? With attention to detail like that and the idea that it's easier to teach people to make and use penicillin than to use basic hygiene, expect "a failing grade aka game over". $\endgroup$ Commented Oct 18 at 8:11

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Checking Wikipedia, it seems that creating penicillin from the right kind of fungus/mold should be possible for your joe everybody, provided he had slightly above average knowledge about the mechanism, and was willing to first convince a few alchemists, and second spend a lot of time doing the research which fungus, where to get and how to grow it, and finally how to produce it in sufficient quantities.

Of course, before that, he would need to make sure he lives long enough in an environment that is not naturally friendly towards strangers, let alone strangers that come up with very strange ideas strongly resembling witchcraft.

One more hint: It would definitely have to be a Joe Everybody. A Jane Everybody would most likely be burned at the stake for only speaking about the idea.

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    $\begingroup$ Maybe he can gain credibility and avoid witchcraft accusations by first establishing himself/practicing as a 'doctor' (whatever the name was for someone treating/curing in those days). $\endgroup$
    – user3106
    Commented Mar 31, 2015 at 7:57
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    $\begingroup$ Sources please. While indeed it can happen that it was "very easy to create suspicion those days as a stranger", I've read a lot of stories from those times when a stranger claiming to be an alchemist or a miracle worker came to town and managed to convince a lot of people to believe in his quackery. Just as in the Wild West here wasn't a pistol duel every noon at every street corner, so there weren't witches burned at the slightest mood swing in the Middle Ages. If you build a world resembling the Middle Ages, take care to not make it look like a strawman. $\endgroup$
    – vsz
    Commented Mar 31, 2015 at 15:57
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    $\begingroup$ Did anyone look at Baen's Bar and the forums for Flint's "Ring of Fire"? I'm pretty sure there's already an expert answer there. And IIRC, part of the issue is materials engineering for any scale of production. $\endgroup$
    – user4239
    Commented Mar 31, 2015 at 18:40
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    $\begingroup$ I would not say the idea is strange, in medieval times making various medicines from grasses, herbs, roots and fungi was very widespread and common, people did it by generations. If somebody appears who claims he knows a good traditional recipe, he would be just respected for the knowledge and willingness to share it. $\endgroup$
    – Anixx
    Commented Apr 1, 2015 at 8:54
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    $\begingroup$ The idea that witches were woman is a more modern idea, back when witch burning was the hottest trend, witches could be female or male. $\endgroup$
    – John Smith
    Commented Apr 8, 2019 at 13:50
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Looking at the history of penicillin, the time traveller in question would need to be familiar with identifying their bacterial cultures. A lot of those bacteria are hard to identify, especially because optics and lens production in Europe did not take off for a while, with the first microscope appearing in 1595.

Unless this person is really interested in molds in the modern world, he wouldn't know:

  1. Penicillin mold is actually a very common food contaminant. Its blue-green tint helps identify it. It should also be noted that fungi play a very large role in Europe, helping preserve foods such as various cheeses and some sausages.
  2. Agar, a growing medium for molds and bacteria, is obtained from things like seaweed or even horse blood. Sounds like a good basis for witchcraft to me!

That aside, if the time traveller remembers how penicillin was discovered, and remembers the two points above, the time traveller (with some experimentation) could make a miracle drug called "penicillin." The next thing to remember is cowpox, a very survivable disease, immunizes people to smallpox, a very deadly disease.

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  • $\begingroup$ Additionally, while a time traveler -might-, with a lot of luck, be able to rediscover penicillin, scaling up production to the extent where you can treat diseases with it is a big challenge in itself. And not one that has a simple answer you can memorize. $\endgroup$
    – Atsby
    Commented Mar 31, 2015 at 8:37
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    $\begingroup$ He would probably know that the first mold was found on food from the story of pencilian. What if he simply let a bunch of bread become moldy, and then took the mold from each bread type and placed it near other molds to see if it was able to destroy them? $\endgroup$
    – dsollen
    Commented Mar 31, 2015 at 14:04
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    $\begingroup$ @dsollen It should be noted that penicillin is an antibiotic which targets bacteria, not other fungi. There is also another issue that humanity may be dealing with penicillin-resistant diseases more quickly because we're likely to misuse such a miracle drug at the time. $\endgroup$
    – PipperChip
    Commented Apr 1, 2015 at 14:18
  • $\begingroup$ @PipperChip yes I misspoke saying fungus, though I was thinking of a petrri dish of bacteria even as I typed fungus lol. I agree that we may run into penicillin resistent diseases sooner, but that doesn't seem like too large a risk. If the traveler knew the risk he could caution others to avoid it. If he didn't, well I still think more lives will be saved then lost, once the power of penicillin is discovered effort to find other antibiotics will begin. It will take longer to find them, starting with less biological knowledge, but still they will be found by the time their most needed. $\endgroup$
    – dsollen
    Commented Apr 1, 2015 at 14:27
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    $\begingroup$ The use of moldy bread as a poultice was an established practice in pre-roman times (amrls.cvm.msu.edu/pharmacology/historical-perspectives) around much of the world. Likewise, distallation was known in pre-roman times. The ability to distill moldy bread into a more powerful and generally useful form is something that would have been grasped by the medeval mindset, and the foundations of the technology were not only present but ancient. The technical difficulty lies in distilling the exact agent from the mold. $\endgroup$
    – pojo-guy
    Commented Jul 16, 2017 at 2:54
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no.. not really.

it's incredibly hard to make useful quantities. In 1941 it took months for a team to create enough to treat a half dozen people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Alexander

Purifying large quantities and avoiding contamination is also a nightmare.

vaccines, or at least one particular vaccine is another matter: our Joe Everyman with only basic knowledge of the history of vaccines could fashion a usable smallpox vaccine from cowpox. All he'd need would be the puss from cowpox sores.

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    $\begingroup$ Penicillin was so hard to refine that they used to collect the urine of the treated patients, reclaim the penicillin from it, and use it again. $\endgroup$
    – Willk
    Commented Feb 16, 2017 at 23:45
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Judging by some recent reports Medieval medicine was not necessarily as ineffectual as we often assume - a modern time traveller would probably be more medically influential through basic general knowledge about the existence of germs, basic hygiene, circulation and so on. Just ensuring people have clean water and wash their hands and surgical tools would save a vast number of lives. Indeed, one of the biggest low-hanging fruit of modern medicine is simply ensuring doctors wash their hands between patients. The ability to make a specific antibiotic would probably be beyond a layman but the knowledge that antibiotics can exist and that one could be derived from blue bread-mould would give future natural philosophers a great advantage in their development.

Edited to add that a highly accessible and world-changing technology would be vaccination - Jenner's approach for Smallpox was fairly simple and for people who live in the modern era it is hard to imagine what a devastating disease that was for most of history.

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    $\begingroup$ I was going to say, having a recipe for easily-crafted antiseptic soap and hygiene training would benefit general health much more than penicillin. $\endgroup$ Commented Oct 3, 2016 at 4:27
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    $\begingroup$ Hygiene For the Win!I love how Terry Pratchett had his witches address possible infections by explaining that hygiene kept away "invisible biting demons". A theory that would fit well in the time period. $\endgroup$
    – Paul TIKI
    Commented Jan 11, 2017 at 14:37
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Unless you have a huge leg-up from the start, this is next to impossible.

If you arrived in 1346 England naked, with no identity, goods, money, status, and (presumably) little to no knowledge of how medieval society worked, you stand pretty much no chance of succeeding. I assume you at least speak (magically?) Middle English to talk to the commoners, and enough Middle French to at least attempt to negotiate with the nobles. Oh, and that you are at least partially immune to the common diseases of the 1300s, or you'd die of dysentery within 2 weeks tops.

The only chance you have, which is still so slim as to count as cruel and unusual torture is this:

  • pretend to be a madman (easy, as they will assume so anyway).
  • beg for people to give you some discarded clothing, food, and point you towards the nearest monastery (hard and grueling task, but can be done within a few months, unless the winter hits and you die frozen in a ditch)
  • beg the monks to take you in. One of the many tasks medieval monks had, was running a "hospital" for madmen, orphans, curably sick, lone elderly people and hobos.
  • show the monks that you can read and write (sort-of, 1300s script is VERY different from modern). Beg to be allowed to become a novice, or at least a servant in the refectory.
  • manipulate your way into working in the basements.
  • once you have access to the basements and the pantry, steal some old buckets and some old bread and flour. Grow moldy bread and moldy flour paste in a dark, humid, cool corner.
  • procure some alkaline substances (potash, quicklime, maybe alum if you are lucky). Get some acids as well (the gall ink monks use is one, but do not get caught stealing it as it was expensive. Vinegar and sour-cabbage juice are also acidic)
  • dissolve your mold into an alkaline solution. leave for a week, slowly adding acids to bring the acidity up.
  • obviously fail, repeat again with different alkali, and different acids, in different proportions until you hit jackpot
  • if you did everything right, the solution will form a bit of foamy scum on the surface, that might contain penicilin in random quantities, as well as a load of inert dead mold and some salts. This is your "penicilin". Drop bits of those into a spoilt puddle of sour beer: the penicilin should repel the bacterial film from forming.
  • remember the recipe that worked, and repeat it several times. Should take you a year or so to perfect it.
  • Convince the monks to use your "mystery cure" on a patient that looks like someone obviously suffering from a bacterial infection (septic wound, dysentery, pneumonia etc ). If they fail to listen claim the cure was revealed to you in a dream by Saint Anthony (don't tell them which St Anthony though, the confusion will help you!)
  • obviously fail, repeat as many times as you can until it works or the monks run out of patience.
  • IF the cure works, make sure to frame it as a great success of your Abbott, who, by God! is truly a pious and venerable man blessed by the Saints, and should lead the holy war against the demon of Black Death itself (this is also something St Anthony revealed to you in a dream).
  • teach the monks how to make more penicilin. Let them perfect the process; brewing stuff precisely meticulously and efficiently was their favorite thing next to Jesus. Let them do their job, and spread the recipe across Christendom through their usual channels (which was a novice on a donkey being sent places).
  • beg the monks to let you quit and retire to a cabin in the woods, where you will be meditating on the Visions of St Anthony as a lonely hermit. Stay there until the whole nonsense blows over.

There is absolutely no point in trying to achieve the same thing via secular channels. The Church, and specifically the monks, are the only people who understand the vague concept of practical science, and have the patience and curiosity to try your idea. Everybody else will dismiss you as a dimwit or a witch. Being considered a witch would not be a death sentence as one would think: the commoners were relatively ok with USEFUL witchcraft. The problem is, your brand of witchery does not conform to the common folk-medicine practice, and requires too much trial and error that the people will not accept. Besides, the commoners do not have the means to help you expand your production, and the nobles will dismiss you as an annoying charlatan. If you managed to reach the king (Edward III at that time) it would greatly increase your chances of success, since Eddy 3 was a very reasonable and practical man, if, arguably, cruel and merciless at times. But your only chance of getting an audience with the king is through the Church, because nobody else is going to vouch for you.

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    $\begingroup$ I you left out some of the ways to identify the mould. It is a bright blue green color. You can "grow" this by accident. The hard part would be getting it to occur properly the first time. Once you have it seeded, it gets easier... But I like your point. This character is doomed, by arriving naked without language though people are used to multiple languages the best chance you have is learning latin before you arrive and old french, writing is dubious at best unless your character used feather quills for fun before arrival, they are not like pens, ... and many other issues. (also +1) $\endgroup$
    – Wyrsa
    Commented Oct 18 at 9:32
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    $\begingroup$ @Wyrsa, the problem is, there are dozens upon dozens of molds that grow bright blue/green in color, and only a few of them produce penicillin, and only a few of those do so in reasonable quantities. You are just as likely to accidentally grow blue-cheese mold which is tasty but as useful against the plague as an umbrella against a tsunami wave. Nearly all molds produce anti-bacterial agents, but only a handful produce ones better than what you can squeeze out of garlic, onions or a lemon. $\endgroup$ Commented Oct 18 at 9:51
  • $\begingroup$ @Wyrsa: Quills write very much like an italic flex fountain pen or dip pen nib. (Except that they are much more flexible than modern flex nibs.) The difficulty is not writing with them as much as sharpening them, which is a skill that very few people have in the modern world. $\endgroup$
    – AlexP
    Commented Oct 18 at 16:49
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    $\begingroup$ This is so far from the proper way to isolate an antibiotic-producing fungus that I just can't say, for the sake of politeness, what I really think of it. $\endgroup$
    – Monty Wild
    Commented Oct 18 at 23:31
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It depends on how much your man knows. Penicillium (the mold from which penicillin is created) is common, but it would very hard for a typical person to identify. It would also be very difficult to test without modern cell cultures. Just slapping random mold on injuries would be more likely to cause infection than to cure it. Unless your man knows one important fact -- that Penicillium is used for creating blue cheese. If he knew that, he would likely be able to get some from cheese manufacturers. Creating oral or injectable penecilin requires advanced chemistry, but using it to create a poultice would be easily done by medieval healers.

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  • $\begingroup$ Great point about uses in a poultice rather than as an orally administered drug. +1 $\endgroup$
    – Paul TIKI
    Commented Jan 11, 2017 at 14:35
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Yes, easily ... And even a lot more. Have a look here. There are some recipes and remedies on the internet.

Also I remember someone saying you can get penicillin from some bread molds.

He/she could also distill alcohol and use it as a disinfectant. 60% alcohol is very easy to distill and it will give you hospital grade disinfectant.

Maybe you can get your character to see a documentary on penicillin or something randomly before being teleported in time. Or maybe he watched a zombie apocalypse movie last night and people were baking penicillin in the movie.

Ah, and something awesome. Maybe your character accidentally kills a nobleman who is allergic to penicillin. Just to give a bit of twists to the story.

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    $\begingroup$ If I woke to find myself in the Dark Ages, it would certainly occur to me to make penicillin, but alas, if the locals decided to force me to try it first, I would die from anaphylaxis and no one would ever try it again. Very short story. $\endgroup$
    – IchabodE
    Commented Apr 1, 2015 at 22:43
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pencilin does NOT treat the bubonic plague, so it doesn't matter.

Frame challange: it doesn't matter because pencilin is not effective aganst the bubonic plague so you can creat metric tons of it and it will have no effect. There is literally no way to produce an effective amount.

To assess the curative value of different drugs in bubonic plague infection, white mice were infected in the laboratory with living Pasteurella pestis, and the treatment with the drug to be tested was begun either 48 or 72 hours after infection, it taking 48-72 hours for the development in mice of septicaemia—the decisive factor in plague infection. Sulfathiazole, sulfapyridine, sulfamerazine, sulfamethazine, sulfadiazine, antiplague serum, penicillin, streptomycin, aureomycin, chloramphenicol, and oxytetracycline were tested. Sulfapyridine and penicillin gave no protection, but the remainder had a curative effect in 50% or more of the animals. The antibiotics, in particular, with the exception of penicillin, protected 90%-100%.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2542128/#:~:text=Sulfathiazole%2C%20sulfapyridine%2C%20sulfamerazine%2C%20sulfamethazine,or%20more%20of%20the%20animals.

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Frame challenge:

Until quite recently, it was assumed that the plague was bought by rats. Rats hitched rides on the ships. Rats arrived at ports. The Black Death spread up the streets to the capital cities, presumably by rats hitch-hiking on carriages. If Camus' description of the outbreak in Oran is realistic (and he was in Oran when the Black Death struck before he wrote 'La Peste') then rats were the first victims. The spreaders of plague were people, and second-hand clothing bearing the fleas from the people.

Second-hand clothing was how the place got to Eyam, a village in Derbyshire. The death rate there from the 1665 outbreak was pretty appalling with 273 recorded deaths from plague from a population that may have been 350 or 800 depending on which source you believe. Eyam is famous for the remarkably intelligent and thorough way it isolated itself from its neighbours, yet traded with them by leaving money for goods on 'plague stones', having outdoor church services, and many other measure that no-where else adopted. If your protagonist wants to appear naked in Eyam in 1665, the story could tell itself.

However, let's do the Middle Ages. If your protagonist speaks schoolboy French with the usual English [pronounciation ('Roy' for 'Roi' etc) then they won't be that far from medieval French. They could stress the need for isolation and quarantine. They should not take in sheets or clothes coming from the plague-ridden capital city, even if they are cheap. And the people are as suspect as the rats. They probably cannot produce an anti-plague serum (though Camus allowed his doctor friend in 'La Peste' to do so based on modern theories), but they could fight the plague in other ways. I have heard it said that proper disposal of human sewage, and the use of cabbage as a food did more than the rest of medicine to save lives for most of history. Preach isolation, good diet, outdoor church services, hygiene, and the practices of Eyam.

You would not suggest attempting to remove an appendix in the Middle Ages. The first successful appendectomy was in 1886, forty years before the discovery of penicillin (1928).

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They probably already knew

It's highly likely that medieval people already knew how to make antibiotics. They didn't necessarily know it was penicillin they were making, but the history of treating wounds and infections with molds containing antibiotic substances stretches back to civilisations as old as ancient Egypt.

It's a similar case with aspirin. Although it was 'discovered' in 1899 when acetylsalicylic acid was first synthesised, people have been treating fevers with willow-bark tea containing salicylic acid since antiquity.

Considering present-day hunter-gatherer's intimate knowledge of the medicinal plants in their environment I'd guess you'd have to go back a very long way before treatments are actually a new idea.

So what can we do?

That being said, local knowledge levels will vary. What you can do is spread knowledge of these existing treatments to people who don't have it.

The other thing you can help with is refinement. One of the issues with these existing treatments is that their methods of application are limited. As previous answers have mentioned, it shouldn't be that hard to produce more concentrated penicillin and you can use that to treat non-topical infections.

Of course, the inability to adequately enforce proper courses of treatment will probably mean the advent of antibiotic-resistant diseases a hell of a lot earlier. Not certain it's such a wise long-term decision...

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It happened before - in the wild: https://online.kidsdiscover.com/quickread/angels-glow-the-bacterium-that-saved-civil-war-soldiers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photorhabdus_luminescens

Basically, some locations, some earth, contains fungi that have anti-biotic effects in the wild. It may prevent wounds from going gangreous and save lifes.

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