For a head of a palace guard (staying mainly inside the palace), is an estoc a realistic weapon of choice?

Question

I'm writing a short story set in a medieval world. My main inspiration was the videogames of the soul series - so, there is magic, dark themes, and a lot of variance in weapons and armors. As you imagine realism isn't the main focus, but still it may be nice to be consistent.

Now, the problem is: I gave a secondary character - the head of palace guards - an estoc - wiki - as weapon of choice. My beta reader made me notice that estocs were mostly used against plate mail armor, and by horseback. Now, how realistic is that the head of a palace guard - who mainly stays inside the palace - is armed with such a weapon?

On a more general side, what is the realistic weapon of choice for the head of a palace guard?

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More details ahead.

The head of the palace guard in question is a woman (for religious reasons, in my world women are considered better than men in most aspects). I wanted to give her an estoc, or another sword that favors the thrusts over the cut, mainly for aesthetic reasons; it may be perceived as more "elegant" rather than your average sword. Her subordinates are common guards, and are mainly armed with swords, halberds and crossbows.

Another important point is that, in my setting, those guards aren't supposed to see much action. The people who live in the palace they guard are religious authorities, so attacking them would be the highest form of heresy. The world they live in is a very tightly knitted one, with only one reign and no other religions around. Of course there are criminal and thieves, but the palace should be a target too risky for them.

I've realized that the estoc might be used as a symbolic weapon, entrusted to the head of the guard as a sign of her position (e.g., the Pope used to gift heavily decorated estocs like the one in the picture).

Edit: she might be carrying a regular sword with her, too, if it makes sense (mainly if the estoc is cerimonial).

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Second edit: I'm having trouble accepting just one an answer to this, since there are a lot of good insights around. There's enough material in this discussion to get a story focussed only on the captain of the guard. I'd like to thank everyone for contributing.

Answer 1

No - Choose a Rapier

My belief here rests on three primary pieces of information:

1. In your world, women tend to have positions like that of the head guard
2. The weapon of your head guard seems to be a standard for the role, not just something selected by the individual
3. Assuming you are using humans as we know them, on average women have 50% of the upper body strength of men.
4. The Estoc is a long, heavy weapon primarily used for thrusting against armored opponents

Given all that, here are the issues with the Estoc:

Women wouldn't elect to pick a heavy, unwieldly weapon if they had a better alternative.

Even if some women have the necessary strength to use it correctly, they are the significant minority since this is a tool designed for sturdier men. Especially if the position goes to well-born individuals your available pool shrinks considerably, to the point where suitable candidates are not likely to be available.

Even ceremonially it would make very little sense for a woman to wield an estoc.

Better alternatives are everywhere.

The Estoc is an awful weapon for indoor combat, particularly as is a very long weapon (that could replace a lance if need be). A dagger would be a better option - and that's saying something.

Edit: Issues Even as a Ceremonial Weapon

The Estoc is a long and heavy weapon. It is not meant to be held all day, and it would be expected to be rested (in fact, you would HAVE to rest it). The challenge though is that if you want to show it off to make a point, you need to have it bared - which means you're putting it point-down and resting your hands on top of it. That's something you would never do to a piercing instrument in a room with a hard floor, least of all if it's highly decorated.

This is compounded by the issue brought up earlier regarding sexual dimorphism of strength amongst humans, wherein women would be more likely to find holding this all day a struggle.

Added to this is the fact that as a long weapon it is out of place indoors.

Taken together, the visual impact is more silly than intimidating or impressive. It would be like saying that extremely fancy daggers are a good ceremonial weapon for the head of a mounted unit. It may not be clearly spotted today in a movie, but at the time it would be a source of ridicule at the expense of the royal family.

Thus the Rapier

(OK - not the best depiction really, but who doesn't love the Legend of Zelda?)

It is still point, but not ridiculously long. It is light. It has a cutting edge. And it can still be rather pretty, and even paired with another weapon if desired.

Answer 2

What is the realistic weapon of choice for the head of a palace guard?

A rapier

Reasons:

• The same age as the stoc (1500s, Reinassance). It required advanced knowledge of metallurgy.
• Very elegant, it can be given as a ceremonial weapon and as a symbol of status
• Lighter than a stoc, but still heavy enough (as much as an arming sword, a "knight's sword") to damage an opponent.
• It gives very good protection to the hand, which is important if your head of the guard isn't wearing armor always. And she probably uses leather gloves over a brigandine.
• Although it is a cut-and-thrust weapon, it favors the thrust as you wanted, due to a stiff long blade. But it is very versatile.

Combined with a parrying dagger, your head of the guard is stylishly armed but ready to fight assaliants.

Answer 3

Ceremonial or Practical?

Consider the Swiss Guards who are carrying halberds on duty (they also have assault rifles and pistols these days). Notably, those who are escorting the flag carry greatswords.

Guards with Naked Steel

Picture a guard standing somewhere with an unsheathed sword, point resting on the floor, hands folded on the pommel. That guard might be able to ready the sword much faster than another guard who carries a sheathed sword on the belt. To rest your hands on a sword pommel, it has to be long enough.

Answer 4

There's a lot of rapier love here, and they're not wrong. Considering: a woman's frame; possible cramped quarters; and lack of plate mail for most foes, the rapier may be more practical.

That said, may I nominate also the humble gladius? It's larger than a dagger, but small enough that you could get it in play in stairwells and really tight spaces.

The visuals and intimidation factor of the estoc are not without value, however. Perhaps wear the estoc over the shoulder and a rapier or gladius at the belt?

Answer 5

Crowd control

I could imagine that it might fall to the head of the guard to clear a path through the citizenry when her charges moved through the city. Maybe citizens want to get close and touch these esteemed personages for luck. She would not want to kill adoring citizens outright. She does not want to wrestle them. She needs a nonlethal weapon to whack them back out of the way.

The same qualities that make the estoc a good sparring weapon (as stated in the link in the OP) make it good for crowd control. An estoc is essentially a baton. Batons are great for crowd control. These Chinese police carry batons that might as well be swords.

from https://www.scoopnest.com/user/PDChina/756605589174751232

Answer 6

Sure, why not. I think it's fine.

First, weapons do not need to make sense as long as they provide a certain level of intimidation. Consider present day police patrolling cities, train stations, and airports -- wearing machine pistols. A machine pistol fires many rounds in rapid sequence, and not very accurately. This is exactly not the kind of weapon that is applicable for areas with hundreds of unarmed, innocent civilians. It's a great weapon for a drive-by shooting, for a bank robbery, or for a terror attack. Only just, it's not in any way a great weapon for police. Anyone cares? No.

Second, an estoc is not at all a bad weapon. It's none less effective than a mace, including the ability to subdue a suspect without killing him and without requiring the blood-stained walls to be cleaned afterwards, and it has better effectiveness against the odd intruder that might carry armour. In addition, other than a mace, an estoc looks cool, having that knightly something of a sword-alike.
Seeing how you do not expect your guards to have a lot of regular action, the part about looking cool may be an important selling point.

Answer 7

A large weapon serves a couple of useful purposes. Intimidation and range.

A palace guards main duty is to protect the head of the palace, king queen etc,. Not himself/herself. So a long weapon can help keep foes at a further distance and just holding one is a warning to all and sundry. With smaller sidearms worn for close quarters.

Imagine a scenario where the guard is holding assailants back while archers shoot them. If he/she is too close the archers may hit him/her or be more reluctant to fire at all trying to get a shot in. Also the stopping power of a large heavy weapon would have an effect on all who witnessed it used.

Answer 8

A sword with no cutting edge is useless in a palace. There will be no cavalry trying to assault inside the room, and waving a long item in a potentially cramped space like a room is going to be highly ineffective.

You would better go for a small sword or a cutlass, or even shorter blades. In most cases taking care of a menace without raising alarm (i.e. during a holy ceremony you don't want to jump on the scene waving a long sword around) is way more beneficial.

Answer 9

Most people here are answering based on the effectiveness of the estoc, for a story this is the wrong line of thinking.

The estoc has a backstory

In Europe during the 1500s there were a few different groups of fighters; to simplify Nobility, levy and professional.

Nobility are trained because nobles were supposed to lead in war times. They would have knowledge of a wide range of weapons but master only a select few, think lances or longswords in France. The noble would not choose which they would get to master and would typically be pressured into learning what their parents thought were the best weapon.

Levy are the working poor who are given a weapon and told to line up when war is being called. Most times they would not be skilled with weapons and just have a boot camp before going off to fight. Their weapons would be crossbows, spears, and short swords in Europe.

Professionals is the final group, they are mercenaries, bandits, crusaders and anyone else who makes a living using violence. Most of the professions offer a large range of weapon choices and they can freely change between them based on what is needed. These mercenaries could be bought to guard your palaces in groups or as individuals. Their loyalties could even be earned for permanent skills soldiers, although most did go the other way

If you make your Palace Guard Captain a professional soldier that you earned the loyalty of there is no reason for her not to use whatever weapon she had used on the battle field.

Answer 10

Yes and no. The need to use a pike-sword would lie in the effect she (or her employer) would like to achieve. On one side this kind of sword is heavy and not designed to be used indoors. On the other it's a large piece of "fock you and everyone around you".

So the message to visitors is clear. The HoS is not there to act but to show the amount of retaliation that will fall on anyone trying something fishy in the castle.

IF they wanted something useful they would carry a mace, baton or a dagger. Not to kill the attacker but to immobilise him, knock him off and carry an investigation. So he would need to be able to answer some questions.

Answer 11

There have been a lot of excellent answers up to now regarding the usage of such a large weapon for a purpose it has not been originally designed for and is unhandy, as it will be difficult to maneuver within the restricted walls and ceilings of a palace and hinder the guards under her command who she should cooperate with.

However, I would like to add that you may answer the question for the choice of weapon also from a character development and background perspective. Maybe the said head of the palace guard has not always been on duty within the restrained walls of a palace but oirginally served in the cavalry where she received enough merit (e.g. for protecting/saving the kingdom or religious leadership in a decisive battle) to be promoted and become head of the palace guard. Her weapn of choice would still be the one she used when fighting on horse back, even though a sword of such length is problematic within the restriction of walls and ceilings in a palace. The specific estoc she carries may even have been the reward for her heroic deed which earned her the promotion.

Answer 12

Like most "what is the best weapon" questions, the answer actually depends on what you are fighting against. An estoc is designed for a specific combat environment, namely thrusting the very stiff blade through gaps in plate armour to drive the point into the hapless person inside. If that is the primary threat the palace guard face, then an estoc is a suitable choice (although in constrained spaces like hallways smashing weapons like hammers and maces might actually be more practical). As a note, the Estoc and Rapier were developed in the late Middle Ages/Early Renaissance to deal with full suits of articulated plate armour.

However, consider that inside the palace, the role of the Royal Guard is somewhat more symbolic. Anyone who actually gets into the palace and is ushered inside has to pass through the gates and by the outer guard, who are attired in armour and armed accordingly to the threat(s). The guardsmen inside the palace are more ceremonial, and indeed inside the reception hall might be truly ceremonial, wearing brightly coloured uniforms and stationed along the walls to provide a sense of scale and highlight the power and grander of the King, and possibly pageantry as they perform the changing of the guard, or carry out evolutions in the hall so they don't pass out from standing at attention too long.

In that environment, the bulk of the people inside the hall are wearing civilian clothes, and are either disarmed (as a prerequisite to entering), or carry largely ceremonial or symbolic weapons, like a Scottish Sgian dubh tucked in the sock, or a gentleman's small sword.

In that sort of environment, the guards are probably well off carrying small swords themselves, or if you want to ensure there is sufficient cutting power to hack through a concealed suit of mail or armour under the clothes, then perhaps a broadsword will do.

This brings us to the Officer of the Guard, and the Captain. As officers (both the duty officer in charge of the detail in the royal hall, and the Captain, who is the overall commander), they will be identified by both different uniforms (in the era being referenced, both finer clothing and a sash to denote rank), and a different weapon. Many posters have suggested a rapier, which is fine (being the cut and thrust cousin to the Estoc), but if the threat is a person wearing concealed light armour under their clothes, then a lighter version of the broadsword should be considered, like the Spadroon.

So define the threat better, and the proper sort of weapon to deal with the threat becomes clear.

Answer 13

Yes actually an estoc is a reasonable weapon for a palace guard. Palaces are pretty big so there would be enough space to use specific combat systems that deal with handling these large types of swords. The advantage to a guard using this is that she would be able to very easily handle multiple opponents at choke points inside said palace, door ways and what not.

You might want to look into the montante too. It's another large sword like this that could have been used by palace guards. There's a method of using it in an alley that is pretty hard to fight against honestly. The main thing when choosing a weapon for a guard to use is to make sure that there's enough space for the combat system your guard will be using and to make sure that the weapon makes sense for your guard to have from a cultural standpoint. If those two things line up well, then your guard can use your weapon.

Everyone else seems to be suggesting that your guard use a rapier. rapiers are general purpose weapons. I would go as far as calling them general purpose self defense weapons. They're alright in every situation, but they're never fantastic.

Keep in mind the guards could also halfsword this weapon and wrestle with it. I personally think an estoc would be dumb because it has no edge. I would go with a montante or a claymore. That makes more sense to me, but this isn't my book. I also like it when things cut. It's more satisfying to me, even though it's usually hilariously unrealistic.

Answer 14

I think the estoc is meant to be useful against armour (plate or mail), which resists edged weapons.

So it might be effective against armoured assailants?

Or it might be some kind of message if the rank-and-file palace guards are armoured (like, in more modern times, soldiers use heavy weapons while an officer carries an anti-soldier hand gun)?

Or maybe the palace receives visitors of state who bring their own armoured body-guards, and the head of the palace guard has the weapon to deter them?

Answer 15

The answer to your question lies mostly in the "not expected to see much action" part of the scenario, especially for the captain.

Swords are heavy. Go grab a 3-4 pound dumbbell. Doesn't seem like much just picking it up (if you're a reasonably fit individual anyway). Now tie it to your left hip and go run up a flight of stairs. I bet you can feel the difference. Imagine carrying it around all day, every day.

If there's a fight, the captain's job is to coordinate the tactics of the guards under her, not to engage in the fray herself. If she has to draw blade and charge into combat things are going very badly. But running from vantage point to vantage point shouting orders and deploying reinforcements would not be unusual. So she wants an weapon that's reasonably effective, but not too heavy.

A number of people have suggested the rapier. That's not a bad choice. It gives a lot of reach and works quite well in narrow corridors. Definitely pair it with a dagger or dirk for dealing with anyone who manages to close to grappling distance.

At around 2-3 pounds, the rapier's still a bit on the heavy side though for someone who can reasonably expect to be well clear of the fighting unless something has gone horribly, horribly wrong. They're generally almost the same weight as a broadsword, just significantly longer.

Consider having her carry a smallsword instead. A smallsword is usually 1 to 1.5 pounds while still being a reasonably effective weapon for someone who can expect to have reinforcements with bigger blades within the sound of her voice.

Answer 16

Estoc stays, I say.

I believe it works, even if perhaps my bias against such an overly-typical choice of the Rapier is fogging my judgement. Here are a few points that I'd like to make less-so because of the weapon, but because of the environment:

-- Large Palace Size:

Huge structures (i.e. columns) and doorways that were large enough you could rotate in the middle of an entry-way with the Estoc extended out and not hit anything. Such a place might even regularly have horseback riding indoors, if not simply large enough for it to happen in an attack.

-- Unique, Locking floor-holsters:

Yes, the weight is ridiculous. I intend to use this mechanism in my own worlds, but think about holes in the palace floor that you may place a standardized Estoc fitting, which locks in place either straight down, or at a slight angle. The unlocking mechanism could be many things, I personally imagined a "key" shape in palace guards metal boots that they use. There may even be Estocs everywhere, ready to grasp and unlock at many locations without bringing your own.

-- Heavy/Massive Armor worn often in Palace:

It could be the absolute norm that travelling through the palace, especially by foreign visitors, one would wear a full set of armor. With the above idea of "floor-locked Estocs everywhere", this already offsets a so-called "strength issue" for women (which I disagree with, we are adaptable creatures. Averages in lazyland of today mean little.) as they rarely need to carry it for extended periods, but rather be very skilled in the burst of strength and endurance used for a short, "to-the-point", armor-bypassing thrust. This 2-30 second bout could be the core of their training, a perfected skill that is handled daily.

Answer 17

First, a palace differs from a fort, a castle or a headquarters. It is a showpiece, designed to impress.

The head of a palace guard is not normally expected to engage in combat but rather to liaise between the court and the rank and file. Your position will have been an appointment, based almost solely upon your loyalty to the ruling entity and his (or her) confidence in your ability to protect them and you will be past martial age. Your duty involves being dressed and armed in a sufficiently ostentatious manner as to stoke the ego of the principal at court functions while providing an obvious reminder that immediate armed intervention is available if required, but you will have become a functionary at that point.

Section supervisors under you will carry standard weapons, albeit their uniforms and weaponry are usually more elaborate than the rank and file as befits their rank; but theirs must functional. Yours, not so much. If assailants get through the palace guard and the court bodyguards you have you have set in place, you have failed in your duty.

Your accoutrements may certainly be functional as well, but they are chosen to reflect the wealth and majesty of the patron, not your martial skills, and will therefore be more for show than go.

Answer 18

You mention that an estoc was often used from horseback, which raises a point about palace guards - in some cultures they were drawn from the nobility, people who had a vested interest in preserving the state, people who could afford horses and whos training would have involved horseback fighting.

If the regent is travelling, its likely they would either be in a horse drawn carriage or perhaps even on horseback, so their bodyguards would likely also be mounted, heavily armored, and probably using swords rather than lances (their job isn't to charge, its to defend).

The estoc seems a likely candidate under these circumstances. She doesn't have to do most of the fighting in case of an actual attack, so I can envisage the common guards being equipped with polearms with a backup sidearm, and the captain being equipped with the primary weapon of her regiment.

Answer 19

The Estoc is a specialised weapon for use by fully armored knights to kill other fully armored knights. Fully armored knights belong on the battlefield. They are no more appropriate for the courtroom than a horse or wagon or trebuchet -- in fact it's a mortal offense to bear arms in the (king's) presence at all.

This is how you get around that fact:

While the knight plays no practical role in the courtroom, they play a great symbolic role. The knight is the symbol of king's power and authority. Thus, as part of general pagentry, the king keeps a handful on a permanent peacetime basis. His train consists of eleven fully armored knights who parade behind him wherever he goes. They carry polaxes -- another knightly weapon for use on other knights. The twelfth knight is your guard captain. She carries a standard in one hand and thus needs a smaller weapon for the other hand. This is traditionally a mace or warhammer but on this occasion is an estoc.

While the processions is there purely for pagentry, they also play the de facto role of king's bodyguard. Most of the time they just work as a deterrant. Their weapons are specialised for anti-armor but consider who they're going up against: There are soldiers outside to prevent weapons being taken into the courtroom, so any attacker must use something small and easily concealable like a dagger. Such an attacker doesn't match up well against even a single unarmed knight.

Answer 20

In the palace sure but you're going to have to have a practical weapon for those rare martial occasions outside the throne room too. Also it will depend on the individual because while a ceremonial weapon will do the job of looking impressive and sufficiently theatrical many warriors, however over the hill they are are going to want the real thing at their hip.