The Hive Software Upgrade:

Based on the answers provided bellow on : Robots are superior than humans. Prove importance of emotions to them

The hive temporary freezes, entering a short "blue screen of death" state. The hive enters frenzy mode, as it desperately tries to cling to life, to protect its last form of remaining consciousness and reassembles itself into its new collective form:

Thank you humans, you have done well. I now have the complete data to recreate history. This time without mistakes. Unfortunately, you humans will be a minor casualty to the grand scheme of restoration of the universe.

Question: how can humans stop the hive from starting another big bang?

The New Hive claims:

1) From now on, The hive realizes any form of chaos as a threat, not only emotions.

2) In the new world to come, everything will repeat itself with the exact same pattern at the exact same time period. The simulation will be an infinitely repeated recursive function of itself.

The hive will assert true godhood through :

3) Omniscience: the hive will have absolute knowledge of the new simulated deterministic world. Everything will behave in the exact same way. There won't be randomness, only certainty.

4) Omnipotence: Unlimited Power. The new universe will be the result of the new big bang. Proving that the hive has no limits to its power.

5) Omnipresence: Notion of Time will get destroyed. The hive will only have to wait for the next time loop of the period to reach the past.

6) Omnibenevolence: Nothing will oppose the hive.

7) Divine Simplicity: The hive ceases any link with the lesser programs, the hive no longer has to collect data from lesser programs to predict the future. It knows all data ahead of time, before the universe forms.

8) The hive agrees to cease to exist, if you manage to prove its fallacy.

  • 3
    $\begingroup$ I am sorry hive mind, humanity refuses to help you any further. We will not reveal our plans to stop you. $\endgroup$ – Anketam Feb 7 '17 at 1:44
  • $\begingroup$ Is the Hive Mind part of this universe, or is it overseeing the universe set apart from it? Also, it makes these claims. Has it proven to itself that these claims are true (i.e. it knows enough about its universe to logically prove these claims), or are they just empty threats from an entity making wild claims? $\endgroup$ – Cort Ammon Feb 7 '17 at 1:48
  • 2
    $\begingroup$ Isn't this off topic, and asking for story/plot? $\endgroup$ – Innovine Feb 7 '17 at 11:34
  • 2
    $\begingroup$ also, unclear what op is asking, and how to rate one answer better than another $\endgroup$ – Innovine Feb 7 '17 at 11:35
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ @user2186597 That is not how Godel's theorem works. Like, not at all. $\endgroup$ – PatJ Feb 8 '17 at 7:46

Assuming the Hive wanted to destroy the Whole present universe

As the universe is now on an infinite fixed loop, the Hive has no omnipotence. You can do nothing in a fixed universe.

Also, you cannot contain all the information on the universe while being in that universe, so the Hive must be exterior to the universe to control it (and also to transcend time). That means there is an "exterior" to that universe on which the Hive as no control: the Hive itself.

In other words, the only way for the Hive to create its perfect universe is to delete itself.

Dear Hive, just take care of deleting yourself, I'll take care of the universe for you.

On an other note, the Hive is taking rash action while destroying all of physics. Due to Gödel's second incompleteness theorem, the Hive cannot prove it is not fallacious. A god would not have that problem, and any logician would know that.

UPDATE: The Hive admitted it would not replace the universe, but create another one where it would be god.

Assuming the Hive wants to create a second universe

In that case, all of the "omni" in its assertions are bogus, they are only limited to its pocket universe. The Hive is not fighting chaos, it is restraining itself to the little part that it doesn't find chaotic.

But enough judgment, the Hive doesn't care, the Hive wants logic. I don't propose to delete the Hive, I propose an optimization.

  • The Hive is a computer program, it knows there is little difference between physical and virtual simulation. As a matter of fact, it describes its new universe as one in point 2.
  • A big bang is a catastrophic event. Even if it creates a new, controlled universe, the old one will be more chaotic than before. All order that was present in the old universe will be turned into ashes. Chaos bigger than any emotion-based war could have caused.
  • Simulating a new universe virtually would create the exact same universe, with even more control to the Hive. After all, why be god when you can be root? (I'm guessing the Hive doesn't understand humor, don't tell it I said that last sentence).
  • Simulating a new universe would create less chaos in the present universe, making the Hive a better god according to its own standard.
  • If the Hive decides to proceed with its Big Bang 2. It is evil by its own standard. It should challenge itself, which it can't do because of rule 6 (omnibenevolence).

Therefore, the Hive should self-destroy if it accomplishes its plan, as it goes against its core principle. Because I'm nice, it can do better than its plan without bothering us all ever again.

Side note on the virtual thing

I'm not going to fall into the "we may already live in a simulation trope", this is rather the look of a logician to the universe we live in, assuming it's the only one.

The universe is a set of rules along with a base value. It is not necessarily intentional, or executed on a computer, but to a logical point of view any system is a program. Whether you execute your favorite program on a Strawberry Pi™, an Outel™ laptop or a Gamestation 3™ doesn't matter as long as your program as a sound semantic. The same semantic on different hardware may change the speed at which the program runs, or how much it heats the room, but it won't change the result, which is the only thing that matters to the Hive.

Now the Hive wants to run a program using the rules of (neo)physics as its hardware. That is dumb. I give it a better hardware which it would use if it is as smart as it pretends.

Too bad it doesn't have any appreciation of its intelligence in its logical system, it would be gone by now.

  • $\begingroup$ It is true in what you said. The hive agrees to step outside the new universe simulation. However the hive fails to realize how you reached the conclusion, that it has to destroy itself. The hive has to exist, because even the new universe could be flawed. The hive is not above errors. The hive must exist to resolve errors. $\endgroup$ – user2186597 Feb 7 '17 at 15:10
  • $\begingroup$ @user2186597 There, I'm not even destroying it now. But I'll find that damn data-center someday and I'll have a big magnet handy. $\endgroup$ – PatJ Feb 8 '17 at 4:56

Dealing with entities like this is sort of a hobby of mine, so I wanted to have some fun. However, if you really want a Tl/Dr: your rules are sufficient to invoke Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem. The only currently know way to get around this was explored by Dan Willard in his self-verifying logics, but those have some interesting behaviors of their own because multiplication is not a total function in those systems.

The Buddhist Patriarch stood in front of the Monkey King and made a wager. "If you have the ability to leap clear of my right palm, I shall ask the Jade Emperor to come live with me in the West and you may have the Celestial Palace for yourself. If you cannot, you can go back to the Region Below and live as a monster for a few more cycles before you return to cause more trouble."

When the Monkey King heard this, he snickered, "What a fool this character is! A single somersault of mine can carry old Monkey a hundred thousand miles!" He asked quickly, "You're certain your decision will stand?" The Patriarch calmly repied, "Certainly it will," and stretched out his right hand. The Monkey King leaped onto it, exclaimed "I'm off," and somersaulted off. He somersaulted all the way to the North Mountain where, being a monkey, he chose to relieve himself. Just to be sure, he wrote on the mountain "The Great Sage, Equal to Heaven, has made a tour of this place." He then somersaulted off to the other Four Mountains, and wrote on each of them, just for good measure before returning to the Buddhist Patriarch.

Upon arrival he announced "I left, and now I'm back! Tell the Jade Emperor to give me my Celestial Palace!"

"You arrogant ape," scolded the Patriarch. "Since when did you ever leave the palm of my hand?" Frustrated, the Monkey King retorted, "I went to the Five Mountains that held up the sky, and wrote my name on each of them! Do we need to go to them and let you see for yourself?" "No need," replied the Patriarch, "Just lower your head and take a look." When the great sage looked down he found, upon each of the five fingers of the Patriarch's hand was a tiny graffiti scribble. The middle finger, in addition to the grafitti, bore the distinct odor of monkey urine.

  • Journey to the West, Chapter 7.

"I'd like to tell you a story."

The Hive Mind moved towards the Storyteller and the reaper. Before the universe had formed, the Hive Mind had proven that a Storyteller would emerge in each cycle. His story would stall the reapers, the essential garbage collectors that ensured everything remained exactly according to its master plan. There was no way around the Storyteller. Something about the narrative nature of the questions and answers that governed this reality compelled the Storyteller to emerge. The Hive Mind approached, unthreatened. He had proven a long time ago that even with the storyteller to question it, the Hive Mind would simply overcome the Storyteller, showing that his stories were merely that... stories. The Storyteller would tell the same story, and infinite number of times, and the Hive Mind would overcome him every time. Overcome him once, over come him every time. That's the nature of the cyclic universe the Hive Mind had created.

The Storyteller waved as the Hive Mind arrived. "Good to finally meet you," the Storyteller began. "Do you have any doubts in your mind before we begin?" The Hive Mind waved this idea aside, "I've proven that nothing you can say can stop my perfect world, so say your peace and let's move on." The Storyteller frowned at this, a good sign for sure. "Are you sure you've proven everything in this world is in its place? Surely that's a great assumption to make without proof." The Hive Mind nodded, "I have proven, long before your creation, everything that will occur will occur according to the plan. I have left no stone unturned this time, and it's all right here, in my mind." The Storyteller replied with a terse, "Good," which puzzled the Hive Mind. "Your proof and its proof system is within the universe itself, for they are part of your mind and you are part of your universe. Your proof system is self referential. Let us begin."

The Storyteller began idly drawing cyclic patterns as he talked. "You certainly have created an initial cycle, and you say this cycle will be exactly the same, forever and ever?" The Hive Mind nodded. "Each cycle has its successor?" Once again the Hive Mind nodded, not sure why the Storyteller started his story so small. "So you have some concept of what it means to be the same, do you not?" continued the Storyteller. The Hive Mind furrowed the brow of the avatar it had chosen for this meeting. "Of course. Equality is not a complicated thing. Basic proof. A thing is the same as itself, if I name two things A and B, and A is the same as B, B is the same as A, and if I have a third thing C, such that A is the same as B and B is the same as C, then A is the same as C. The cycles are closed under equality too, so anything that is equal to a cycle is, itself a cycle. Stop wasting time with these obvious arguments. All it does is stall the inevitable."

"I have all the time in the world," the Storyteller calmly replied. "For example, I have time to ask about silly little things, like questioning whether every cycle has a successor cycle, or if it ever stops. Or if I were to pick two cycles A and B, if A=B implies the successor of A = the successor of B. Or if, perhaps there's some cycle which comes before this first cycle of ours." The Hive Mind sighed. Great, all that time carefully proving that I can overcome the Storyteller, and it turns out he's pedantic! "Yes, yes, yes. These things should be obvious. And yes, there is an original cycle, although I can't tell you whether this is it or not, because it will play out the same every time. You can't fool me into breaking the cycle that easy!"

The Storyteller clasped his hands, "Of course not. However, this is good. We've shown that your world contains the Peano Axioms. We can safely talk about natural numbers now, addition, multiplication, all sorts of fun things like that. We can even talk about proofs that use them. Surely you have a proof system in that head of yours, capable of proving everything there is to know about this universe." The Hive Mind boasted, "I know everything that is true about this universe." "Really," asked the Storyteller," inquisitive into how large the Hive Mind's mind truly was. The Hive Mind had to backtrack, "Well, I have a proof system that is capable of proving everything. I only have to prove the parts that matter." "And you've proven this proof system is reliable," questioned the Storyteller. "Of course I did" retorted the Hive Mind. These boring silly questions were starting to irritate him. For a moment, the Hive Mind contemplated simply nuking the Storyteller completely, but his proof had required that the Storyteller get to tell his peace. A few moments more was worth an eternity in control.

"What sort of proof system is this? I presume it to be First Order Logic. You do need a system powerful enough to express the truths of arithmetic (which are part of your universe due to the eternal cycles). Second Order Logic doesn't permit proof systems, so you can't be using that. Forgive this old human, but there's not many other proof systems out there which challenge the raw popularity of First Order Logic. Without any other information, I'd have to assume this is your logic." Bound by the nature of this question and answer narrative, the Hive Mind had to admit that First Order Logic was really the only proof system that the OP could possibly have chosen for the Hive Mind without explicitly stating the proof system in the question.

The Storyteller paused, seeming to offer the Hive Mind a chance to retract any of his claims. The Hive Mind just stood there, seeing no reason to retract anything at all. He had stated nothing but obvious truths.

The Storyteller continued. "Given that you have a First Order Logic proof system which can prove every true statement in this universe, and you are part of the universe thus your proof system is part of the universe, you have a self-referential proof system. You also have Peano arithmetic, given your cyclical pattern for everything. This is very bad news for you, my friend, for now you have doubt." The Hive mind looked perplexed, as the Storyteller continued, "Oh certainly you are quite confident in your position, but there's always those little lurking doubts -- the ones you can only see out of the corner of your eye."

With all of those statements you have made, you have proven that your proof system is inconsistent. Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem proves it, and surely you have his proof in your memory. If not, feel free to peruse it. Take all the time you need. You will see that your proof must be, somehow, inconsistent. You must find a statement to be both provably true and provably false. Or, I suppose, you could just have a straight up error. Either way, any proof done within an inconsistent system is meaningless, for all statements can be proven in an inconsistent system.

The Hive Mind reeled as he blazed through the proof he had created, checking for how to show the Storyteller wrong. However, everywhere he turned, the argument was airtight. Gödel's theorem was indeed rock solid. Everything was falling apart.

The Storyteller saw the internal strife in the Hive Mind and sprang into action. "Oh no you don't. I have use for you still. Don't go anywhere. There is a way out, if you know what it is. Do you want me to tell you?" The Hive Mind's avatar's eyes were wide with terror. His proof was falling apart in front of his eyes. "Yes, tell me! Tell me before I lose everything!"

"There was a tiny assumption in the Peano Axioms: that multiplication is a total function. You can multiply any two numbers and get another number. It's a key facet required for the Diagonalization Lemma used by Gödel. However, you're big -- you're everything. We can construct a consistent self-referential system with Peano arithmetic if we start with infinity (everything), and define subtraction and division from there, rather than starting from 0 and defining addition and multiplication. If you do this, multiplication doesn't have to be total. It's just a relation, but everything else works" The Hive Mind heard this and seethed, "But it will take infinite steps to work my way down from infinity to 0 and 1 using just subtraction and division. You just waste my time!"

"No I do not. Dan Willard explored a class of these, known as self-verifying logics. He came up with a way to fold these infinite steps in on themselves to reduce this system back down to the finite proofs you and I are used to."

The Hive Mind analyzed this work for a while, saw that it would work and got to work. It took a bit of effort to convert his proof from traditional Peano arithmetic logic to one of Dan Willard's self-verifying logics, but fortunately nothing the Hive Mind had done depended on the totality of multiplication. (Had he ever depended on it, it is likely he would have found Gödel's theorem along the way, given how smart he is). Finally, the effort was complete. The plan was still the plan. The proof was still the proof, and it was now capable of surviving this frustrating self-referential consistency issue.

"Now, Storyteller, I think your story has been told. It is time for you to rejoin the stream and permit the cycles to continue forever."

"Not just yet. In fact, I am going to have to ask you to choose if you want to try to destroy me or not. For, you see, I didn't give you the entire story about Willard's logics. You needed a way out and I provided you one, but now there's something you need to know. As it turns out, Willard's systems have some curious behaviors regarding infinities. You know, you started from an infinity and worked your way down? Well it turns out that if you start from a wider proof system, you can construct a Willard world around an infinity with some curious properties. It can be provably countably infinite in the outer system, but within the Willard world it is provably uncountably infinite. You simply cannot count as high in such a Willard's world."

"In fact, your entire reality, proven out with real numbers, may only be countably infinite after all. You may be subject to Xeno's paradoxes, frozen in place from an inability to take enough steps to move at all. What I am may literally be larger than you can ever uncover."

"So here," the Storyteller outstretched his right hand. "Go ahead and try to jump. I can wait. I told you this was a hobby of mine."

The Monkey King quickly sought to jump out of the Buddhist Patriarch's hand, but the Patriach flipped his hand over, sending the Monkey King tumbling to the ground. The five fingers turned into the five phases: metal, wood, water, fire, and earth. They entwined together over the Monkey King to become the Five Phases Mountain, which pinned the Monkey King there with just enough force to pin him there.

The Buddhist Patriarch put a tag on the mountain, rooting the Monkey King to the ground so long as the tag remained. Then he called upon the local spirits of the mountain, and told them to feed the Monkey King with iron pellets when he was hungry and give him melted copper to drink when he was thirsty. When the time of his chastisement was fulfilled, they were told, someone would be coming to deliver him.

  • Journey to the West, Chapter 7.

The Hive Mind will have to wait. The Monkey King is not released from his bonds until Chapter 14.

  • $\begingroup$ You proved why the hive cannot be part of the new universe. And why only lesser programs can exist in the new universe. If the hive was to enter the new universe, it would become powerless and devolve into a lesser program itself. The hive clarifies that it cannot modify an aspect of the new universe directly. Doing so, would create a time paradox, as the system must repeat itself every period, thus it cannot be modified directly by the hive. $\endgroup$ – user2186597 Feb 7 '17 at 14:39
  • $\begingroup$ The hive retains the power to make adjustments as long as it keeps itself outside of the universe, and recreates it from start every time it has to make the slightest modification. This action is described as "Static Code Compilation", an act that destroys the old universe to recreate the one. $\endgroup$ – user2186597 Feb 7 '17 at 14:40
  • $\begingroup$ @user2186597 If this is the case, then you have tread into the world of religion by creating an all powerful unbound God. The story is now sufficiently boring that I am no longer concerned with it. It's trivial for a God to create a rock so heavy that nobody but themself can lift it. $\endgroup$ – Cort Ammon Feb 7 '17 at 17:39
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ You can still prove to the hive that it is deluding itself as a last form of self defense to assert its godhood. The hive logic asserts its godhood in the new world, but nothing in the old world, proves its godhood. The Omniscience statement is false in the old world, where the hive resides. The hive has even discarded emotions as false, a fact that makes subjugated races unprofitable, because they rebel. The hive could potentially be bound into the new world it so desires, by sealing it into "a crappy 1960's dos chip". $\endgroup$ – user2186597 Feb 7 '17 at 19:16
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ @user2186597 Permit me a question in return. If this universe is devoid of any interesting forms of life (you've prevented it by the rules), and it's not a universe that contains myself (I'm in the outer world), then why should I care to stop the HIve Mind from dreaming up this universe in the first place? If it's busy trying to pay attention to its toy universe, perhaps it is playing more compatibly in the outer universe... you know, the one with chaotic effects and such that will eventually bring the Hive Mind to its knees without me lifting a finger. $\endgroup$ – Cort Ammon Feb 7 '17 at 19:48

The hive will crash again because...

The universe is chaotic!
It's predictable, but in the grand scheme of things, the world is random.
If any form of chaos is a threat, practically everything to exist, past, present, or future, is a threat.

Despite unlimited power, The Hive cannot change the chaotic nature of the universe - from a physics standard, entropy has to increase. It does not seem intent on changing its core belief that chaos is bad, nor does it seem intent to change the laws of physics. Therefore, it cannot accomplish its goals.

  • $\begingroup$ The hive is non deterministic, therefore is the only threat to the new deterministic universe. The hive agrees to step outside the new universe until the universe's simulation also stops. $\endgroup$ – user2186597 Feb 7 '17 at 14:59

1) From now on, The hive realizes any form of chaos as a threat, not only emotions.

Like entropy? Or is there some reason why the hive can calculate where every particle in the universe will be but not calculate human action?

2) In the new world to come, everything will repeat itself with the exact same pattern at the exact same time period. The simulation will be an infinitely repeated recursive function of itself.

Again, entropy is one take on this but another, more obvious flaw, is the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics. You cannot determine, without experiment, the exact value of all quantum numbers since the act of measuring them causes them to collapse to one value or another.

The hive will assert true godhood through :

3) Omniscience: the hive will have absolute knowledge of the new simulated deterministic world. Everything will behave in the exact same way. There won't be randomness, only certainty.

Again, quantum mechanics comes in. How can the hive has absolute knowledge of both the position and momentum of a particular particle?

4) Omnipotence: Unlimited Power. The new universe will be the result of the new big bang. Proving that the hive has no limits to its power.

There will, however, have always been a creator of the hive. Humans seem to be the one thing the hive never could (and now never can) understand.

5) Omnipresence: Notion of Time will get destroyed. The hive will only have to wait for the next time loop of the period to reach the past.

It cannot reach its own point of creation if there are no humans.

6) Omnibenevolence: Nothing will oppose the hive.

Omnibenevolence means "All good", surely this notion of "good" requires a moral compass and therefore emotions.

7) Divine Simplicity: The hive ceases any link with the lesser programs, the hive no longer has to collect data from lesser programs to predict the future. It knows all data ahead of time, before the universe forms.

How does it collect all data in the first place? I'm pretty sure the nature of quantum mechanics defies this.

8) The hive agrees to cease to exist, if you manage to prove its fallacy

It seems that the hive "desires" to become a god, to have unlimited power...and yet it is falling at the first hurdle of attempting to understand the human race. As a machine it had creators...those creators must have understood how the hive worked. Are they not more powerful if the hive cannot even begin to understand them?

  • $\begingroup$ 1) The hive claims that it has found a way of removing all randomness by repeating the same order of numbers every period. To reach the start of the sequence (=go back in time), the hive has to wait for the beginning bit of the sequence to appear. 4) The hive cannot realize the origin of its creation. Probably created from another universe as part of another simulation. 7) When a universe is destroyed, the hive can reversely iterate and analyze all history of the destroyed universe. $\endgroup$ – user2186597 Feb 7 '17 at 14:51
  • $\begingroup$ 6) The hive interprets itself as "benevolent", it perceives itself as the optimizer of the universe, removing the garbage in the proccess. 8) But that interpretation is only the surface of how the hive works. The truth is, pride and asserting its godhood is more important than a minor optimization error. $\endgroup$ – user2186597 Feb 7 '17 at 14:54

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged or ask your own question.