Would a spear ever out perform a bow when wielded by an insanely powerful person?

Question

I am writing a story where humans are battling monsters (Think orcs, goblins, dire wolves, etc).

I wanted to stay away from the typical ‘go for guns’ and try historical weaponry. I know the bow has longer reach and potentially more lethality. But how much is that the design/materials of the weapon?

Is there a point where an insanely strong human could throw a spear further/harder than that same person wielding a bow? A point where the type of design/materials wouldn’t be able to compensate for raw throwing strength?

The humans in question could be as ‘weak’ as Captain America, or as strong as Thor.

Answer 1

Interestingly (to me, at least), the most important thing is not so much strength but speed. If you could throw a little metal dart at 500m/s then you might well be able to drop someone in full plate armor because your throwing arm is comparable to a modern firearm, even if you didn't have cartoon-like ultra-strength enough to lift and hurl an ox, etc.

The fastest normal-human sportsballers can throw at perhaps ~100mph (~160km/h)... both cricket and baseball have records at that sort of speed. A big javelin flung at that sort of speed is obviously pretty bad news if it hits you, but it'll be harder to aim (because it won't have a trajectory as flat at the bullet-like dart) and it'll take longer to cross the same distance requiring a bit more thought when dealing with moving targets or strong cross-winds, and so seems like it wouldn't are at all well with skinny-mc-bullet-chucker

Bows are of course very much subject to material limits. It is interesting to note that whilst siege weapons like the catapulta or ballista could indeed outrange a human with a bow, mostly what they could do was throw a much heavier projectile at fairly similar speeds. I don't believe there was much scope for historical bows to have a significantly higher initial projectile velocity than they did (for a ballpark figure, this testing of arrow speeds had a top speed of a little over 120mph from a modern non-composite 64lb longbow which probably wasn't firing war-weight arrows). I suspect this means that if your superhumans could fling a projectile at over 120mph, they might reasonably expect to outperform a bow shooting a projectile of a similar weight, even if the bow had crazy siege-weapon-like draw weights.

It is important to consider accuracy, though. Long range descending projectiles are always going to be hard to aim, and whilst ancient siege weapons might have had a deadly range of 450m, their effective accurate range was probably closer to a third of that, if you were shooting at human-sized targets.Humans are good at throwing, sure, but I'd say that throwing a javelin is much harder to do with high accuracy than shooting a bow.

Siege weapon ammunition is big, heavy, and awkward to make compared to regular war-arrows, and you shouldn't waste it by throwing it at distant, small, moving targets. If your superhumans aren't attacking fortifications by throwing rocks at them, they should be charging in and throwing javelins and darts and the like at much closer range, where they can much more reliably hit and maximize their benefits over regular bow-shot.

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Who are your supers fighting? If they're fighting people of equivalent strength and speed, then you'll find that they'll be able to carry such heavy shields and armor that in combination with their super-strength and super-reflexes mean that projectile weapons just aren't a threat to them.

They're gonna square off against each other, at close range, with weapons optimised for crushing or opening heavy armor that no human could carry. They'll be much closer to real tanks than RPG tanks with sexy abs'n'boobs enhancing armor. Spears and arrows are only good for wasting the rank and file, not the elite.

Real-world knights kinda went this way too. Swords aren't really that good against serious full-plate (and half-swording is a compromise, people) and so heavy armor ruled up until the advent of decent musketry.

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• Problem: you can't create a bow better than your superheroes' throwing arms due to material limits.
• Observation: your superheroes have bones and tendons and ligaments and skin and maybe even hair that can survive extreme forces and rapid movement.
• Solution: manufacture composite super-bows from the bodies of your enemies.

Suddenly archers, in a rather gristly form, are back in the game.

Answer 2

Even without super strength a spear can outperform

The question in the title is about out performing. The question in the description is about reaching father/harder. I would focus on 'out performing' in killing or taking opponents out of the fight.

As a general rule an arrow fired from a bow is less heavy than a spear. This makes it go a further distance at a higher speed when launched with identical energy. The spear has more mass, requiring more energy than an arrow to get to the same speed.

But here is the twist. Spears generally have more energy behind them. They might go slower, but the impact is much more dangerous. This is incredibly important for your targets! Most arrows do not give a high panic reaction and the pain also isn't very high. If nothing vital is hit, which is mostly by cutting major arteries, the target is very much still standing. Your targets seem to be bigger and tougher monsters. They can lose more blood and get more damage than a human. You want more stopping power. Arrows are good, but spears can really get in there and do damage.

I understand you want more distance between you and monsters, but if arrows do not do enough damage except with lucky shot, or might not even penetrate deep enough, you need heavier weapons. Without super powers spears would already out perform against monsters compared to an arrow.

Farther than a bow

It is still possible to throw a spear further than a bow for a super powered person. The bows have material limits, whereas your super powered soldiers are upgraded beyond biological limits. If you would give captain America a bow you would probably not reach the limit with the English long bows. However, halfway up the ladder to Thor they could already snap the bow by drawing the string. They can throw a spear much further than a bow.

However, bows were build with the limits of humans in mind. You might still be able to build a bow of special iron for example, which wouldn't break in the hands of super powered soldiers.

Even so I would choose spears. In cost a spear is comparable to an arrow, as the most cost is in the crafting and not the materials. As they are very similar this is about the same. Spears are more sturdy, have more mass to drive into a body, are less in danger to shatter and can be used very well in keeping distance in close quarters fighting. They are probably preferred above nearly all other weapons in a close quarters engagement against monsters because of their reach.

TL:DR

The spear travels less far, but in real life already has more energy behind it than an arrow. It is preferred against bigger monsters. For super powered soldiers it is also more sturdy and reusable, only marginally more expensive than an arrow and only has the biological constraints to deal with. Lastly if a monster closes the gap it is the preferred choice of weapon. The spear allows you to keep as much distance between you and your opponent as possible, while being an excellent individual and team weapon to do damage.

Answer 3

While not an expert in the subject, my common sense is telling me the answer is no. The bow is a force multiplier, using the coiled tension within the wood and string to deliver more power than the arm could supply on its own. The only reason why it wouldn't be advantageous to use a bow would be if the material of the bow were to snap under the pressure. However, the existence of siege weaponry, as well as the makeup of modern bows and crossbows, shows us that the upper limits of a bow's tensile strength can be pushed quite far, even at lower levels of technology. Heavy ballistas, catapults, and even hand crossbows existed as early as 400 or perhaps even 600 BC, and were certainly normalized among leading military powers by 200 BC, meaning that ancient or medieval societies should absolutely have the capability to make bows for super strong humans.

Thus, it seems to me that if you can draw a bow back without breaking it or snapping its string, the arrow loosed would travel further and with more power than if the same push were given to a spear - also, necessarily, with more accuracy. Furthermore, if we are to believe that the person drawing the bow is so strong that they would break it, surely the same limitations apply to the thrown object. A spear thrown with such great force would likely shatter upon impact, rendering it a deadly but ultimately inefficient and unpredictable weapon. Either way, I suspect the bow would be better.

A compromise between the two lies in the Atl-atl, an ancient spear throwing technology. If you beleive that your superhumans are so strong that they would snap the string of any bow made for them, using a pure leverage device like the atl-atl still adds the accuracy and force multiplication that makes such a weapon reliably dangerous without having a weak link. Historically, bows replaced atl-atls for a reason, and I still think that some manner of bow would work best (crossbows, compact bows, longbows and recurve bows all offer different working solutions to the problems that an intense draw strength might pose to the structural integrity of the weapon). But if you really like the rule-of-cool image of your super strong humans throwing stuff because "no bow can handle their raw power," I think giving them atl-atls would add a fun touch while also answering the accuracy issue.

Answer 4

"Is there a point where an insanely strong human could throw a spear further/harder than that same person wielding a bow?"

Short answer: No.

Longer answer: It's still very definitely no.

A bow is a force multiplier.

The stronger he is the stronger the bow he can use.

So he will always outperform himself with a custom bow than with a spear.

For any professional archer custom bows are entirely par for the course, and it's the same for amateurs, even today buying a modern bow in a sports shop you will still always buy a bow with a poundage according to your ability to string and pull it.

The only time your hero might do better with a spear, no matter how insanely strong he is, is if for some reason he didn't have access to his own bow and all he had available were his puny human companions bows, then, and only then, he might concievably be better off chucking a pointy stick.

Answer 5

A spear or javelin would outperform in terms of sheer mass/energy, but they're not touching a bow on accuracy. That mighty javelin is nil if you can't hit your target with it! Or worse, you hit in a non-critical spot and just made the monster mad...

So let's give our insanely powerful warrior the best of both worlds: a ballista-sized crossbow which only they have the strength to wield and arm. A fast javelin-sized bolt with high accuracy is bound to ruin many-a monster's day.

Answer 6

If your humans have space to carry them, there's a third solution - the atlatl, or spear-thrower.

The atlatl is effectively a much older and much deadlier version of those plastic tennis ball throwers people use to play fetch with their dogs. It's a straight shaft, usually as long as the user's forearm, with a cup at the end to support the spear. To use it, hold the atlatl in your throwing hand and pull your arm back. Place the spear on the shaft with the end of it in the cup, and swing. The cup is shaped so that it releases the spear when your arm reaches the top of its arc, and the spear flies away much faster than you could throw it normally.

Physics-wise, the atlatl is just as simple as its construction. When you throw a spear, you accelerate it using the muscles in your wrist, elbow, and shoulder. The rest of your arm acts as a lever that applies that force over a long distance so that the spear is moving as quickly as possible when you throw it. Using an atlatl extends the length of that lever (usually by about 50%), which means that the end holding the spear moves an even longer distance when you throw. Because your arm still takes the same amount of time to rotate when you throw, end of the atlatl moves much faster than your hand, and so does the spear.

Although your soldiers probably wouldn't be able to reach bow ranges using an atlatl, they could definitely throw much farther than without one even without super strength, and a faster spear would also do more damage. A human with super strength could use an atlatl just as easily as anyone else, and there's not really a limit to how fast they can throw one - bows can only be drawn with so much force before something breaks, but an atlatl is just a really fast stick. Historically, atlatls were used to throw darts, which were about 8 feet long and had a very thin, very light, and very fragile shaft - in other words, a terrible spear. However, an atlatl can be used to throw anything that's relatively dart-shaped, so your soldiers could easily throw their spears with them, albeit at shorter ranges. If they're willing to make some minor modifications to their spears, they could add large fletching to the rear to create a kind of spear-dart hybrid. The fletching won't increase range, but they will make them more accurate, which is just as important.

PS: If you go the hybrid route, use helical fletching, which spirals around the shaft at a very slight angle. It spins the spear the same way rifling spins a bullet for even more accuracy.

Answer 7

Your question presumes it, but a spear doesn't have to be thrown.

• A phalanx of soldiers can march forward, spears bristling, and hold ground
• A spear can be used to stab with more force than a held arrow
• A spear can be used as a makeshift punji stick against charging cavalry
• A spear can be used as an effective melee weapon at close range (the point and the shaft)

Answer 8

Consider the materials science of your world. Perhaps spears are better because they are incapable of making a bow that taps the full strength. The bow breaks first. Either the cord or the bow itself.

Javelins do not require flexibility the way a bow does.

Answer 9

No.

The bow accumulates the strength provided by the movement of the archer that lasts about a second (Two seconds if the archer is weak) and uses that power concentrating it in a fraction of a second. The human in question should not be just insanely strong, to throw a spear at a decent speed that human should also be insanely fast and agile. Agile otherwise the joints and the tendons would break, fast because this is a movement that requires a complex coordination.

All those qualities together would be very difficult to explain.

Answer 10

There's no reason the spear wouldn't be more deadly, either way you can only expect to hit what you're aiming at. Beyond a certain distance I would expect a spear to perform better as numerous ancient sources cite the effect of wind on arrows. Whereas a spear has a lot more mass and would be less affected.

But if you really want to make a mess of the monsters.....

Why not go for a sling? It outranges a bow, and can be improvised in seconds with ammo just lying on the ground at your feet. You can just chuck big rocks instead of stones. The range and power is a multiplier of your strength rather than reliant on a bows draw. So the stronger you are the further and harder you can throw.

I throw large stones because I like the way they hit, but with smaller ones 100 mph is not a problem, a real slinger would do lot more I would think.

Answer 11

The WR for javelin throw is just ~100m -- and that's with a technique focused on maxxing distance instead of accuracy.

Any amateur archer can easily outperform that distance with a compound bow. If we ignore accuracy and focus just on distance like javelin throwers do, top marks for longest bow shot get to ~1200m (~1900m if you include crossbows).

But just distance won't do much in combat. You need accuracy.

Current accurate bow shot WR is about ~250m. On the other hand, while I've not been able to find current records for accurate spear throwing, general consensus sets a historical range for it of... 10m. Yup, just one zero there.
Considering that specialized athletes usually outperform average humans, let's be generous and settle for ~25m of range for an accurate spear throw.

This means shooting arrows outperforms throwing spears by 10x-20x both in pure reach and accurate reach.

But we're talking superhumans here. Spears are heavier and carry more energy. Wouldn't a superhuman capable of a 250m accurate spear throw come out on top?

Sure! But then again, what's stopping your superhuman of building themself a bow that shoots spear-sized arrows?

If this superhuman can accurately throw a spear to something 250m away, applying the same 10x-20x factor, with a bow (and eagle-like vision) they could probably hit targets 1km away.

Imagine a warrior with a bow that shoots frigging javelins instead of arrows. How cool would that be?

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TL;DR: Shooting a pointy stick with a bow always outperforms throwing it with your arm. If you want to throw bigger and heavier sticks, just build bigger and heavier bows.

Answer 12

To be safe from monsters, humans would build fortifications.

In order to throw a spear with decent force, the thrower must take at least three steps to gather momentum, which makes it impossible to throw it from the walkway on the top of the ramparts. For the same reason, a spear can't be fired from cover, or through a hole in the wall, or a machicolation:

In the thick of the woods, or in a monster cave, a spear would perhaps be too long, awkward to maneuver, it would bump into obstacles. But an archer is much more maneuverable, and can hide behind a bush, even shoot through foliage without being seen.

In all these circumstances, your overpowered humans' ranged weapon of choice would probably be a heavy bow with heavy arrows.

Now, there's the atlatl. Throwing spears that are propelled with an atlatl are essentially longer arrows. They are lightweight and flexible:

They must be springy. When thrown, the spear bends, storing energy, then it springs forth. This gives it a higher speed than a simple throw, but it means it can't be used as a non-throwing spear to skewer someone: it would be too flexible and wobbly.

Combat spears used as a two-handed weapon have to be stiff, therefore heavy, therefore hard to throw.

The wounding ability of a projectile depends on its kinetic energy, so a light fast projectile beats a heavy slow one.

Now... your super strong humans would most likely be using crossbows instead.

The crossbow has many advantages. It requires much less training than a bow, anyone can be accurate with it pretty quick. And it allows a huge draw weight with medieval materials. Its main issue is that it is heavier and slow to reload, because normal humans are not strong enough, so they have to use a winch. However, a super strong human would just pull the string back while inserting a new bolt, making reloading much quicker, a second or two. Weight would also be much less of an issue.

Throwing spears also have the ammo issue: you can't realistically carry more than one. Where will you put a bunch of 2m long spears? In a quiver on your back? It has to be a two handed weapon, or it will bump into absolutely everything, get stuck into door frames, etc.

Answer 13

Yes, eventually spears win because of material limits.

People have already touched on the strength limits of bows and the suggestion as been made to use the bodies of one's enemies--that might work for not breaking but there's still the issue of how much energy they can store.

However, there's another material limit that can't be handwaved: for your projectile to survive the launch. Your projectile is being driven from behind, eventually you'll reach a point where the projectile itself can't stand up to the acceleration. Furthermore, a bow delivers very uneven acceleration, most of it is at the start, whereas a spear is accelerated reasonably uniformly. For the same strength projectile you can therefore attain a higher final speed with a spear. You also have the advantage that the spear is heavier and thus packs more energy for the same speed.