Timeline for Creating a dark world - How can I not completely handwave the dark cloudy atmosphere
Current License: CC BY-SA 3.0
23 events
| when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
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| Jan 17, 2018 at 14:42 | comment | added | Justin Thyme | @ r41n Some people still believe that Columbus actually sailed to prove the world was flat, despite the official historical record. They get quite upset when someone challenges their worldly belief system. That doesn't lessen his position in history, however. | |
| Jan 17, 2018 at 7:16 | comment | added | r41n | I think this is by far the best answer, yet it seems to have a load of downvotes because some aren't convinced this actually happened, which definitely isn't relevant in this context. If the volcano(es) would output enough, but not too much, debris/ash to make the atmosphere a bit "darker", it could definitely change the taste of the rain and not necessarily increase its toxicity too much. | |
| Jan 17, 2018 at 0:59 | history | edited | Justin Thyme | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
added 110 characters in body
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| Jan 17, 2018 at 0:14 | comment | added | Justin Thyme | @ Binary Worrier An event that caused world-wide climate change, catastrophic famine, upwards of 80 percent of a northern population dying due to famine, social upheaval so pronounced that entire governments were overthrown, great segments of the population questioning religion (at the time, what ELSE would cause such devastation?) and you are saying a scholar would NOT know about it? Eight hundred years is NOT a long time. That is like saying we know nothing about the 14th century. Families in Europe can trace their family narrative back longer. Family feuds in Europe can go back 800 years.. | |
| Jan 17, 2018 at 0:00 | history | edited | Justin Thyme | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
added references and quote
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| Jan 16, 2018 at 23:44 | comment | added | Justin Thyme | ctd The plague, in fact, was so severe BECAUSE of the malnutrition of Europeans, caused by this climate-induced famine and agricultural collapse. Many millions of deaths in this period were because of famine, not the plague. | |
| Jan 16, 2018 at 23:43 | comment | added | Justin Thyme | ctd Rain continued in 1317 and 1318. Weather started to improve in some parts in that year. However, extensive flooding in the Low Countries continued in 1320 and 1322. The NOA cycle finally ended that year. but the recovery didn’t start until 1325. Lack of communication aggravated these calamities as it could well be that only one or two districts further there was enough food that could have helped out their neighbours.' from (paulbuddehistory.com/europe/the-great-death) Can you blame him for talking about darkness? | |
| Jan 16, 2018 at 23:41 | comment | added | Justin Thyme | But let's see what the climate was in Europe when Petrarch wrote this quote. 'During the months of May, July and August in 1315 it more or less rained non stop in most of north-western Europe followed by an unusual cold August and September. Spring rains in 1316 prevented proper sowing, harvests failed again and the rain simply continued. That year was the worst for cereals crops throughout the entire Middle Ages, this was also a year of death with many people dying of starvations. . | |
| Jan 16, 2018 at 23:24 | comment | added | Justin Thyme | @computercarguy Not sure how your reference has anything to do with 'not really dark'. The beginning of this period was indeed dark. Agriculture was severely disturbed. In what is now Central America, agriculture collapsed. All part of the historical record. Please explain exactly WHY he would not be writing about an actual event? It is not uncommon to make a metaphor from a real event. That does not mean the metaphor did not originate from the description of the event. | |
| Jan 16, 2018 at 23:18 | comment | added | Justin Thyme | @ LSerni Read that phrase (translated) carefully. Explain to me why he is not talking about something that is KNOWN to have happened at the beginning of the time period, and would probably have been known at the time? So many metaphorical phrases have their basis in actual events. Hence we talk about the 'Ice Age' metaphorically, but it gets its name from an actual event. The 'Ice Ages' as a metaphor is used, for instance, in the phrase 'knock technology back into the Ice Ages', not REALLY meaning time travel, and not REALLY meaning 'a very cold time'. | |
| Jan 16, 2018 at 21:56 | comment | added | computercarguy | I'm going to support Binary Worrier here and call BS on "it being actually dark", and here's why: study.com/academy/lesson/… . @JustinThyme, that's your citation. This site requires a login to read the full paper, but the relevant section is in the freely available snippet they allow unregistered users read. | |
| Jan 16, 2018 at 21:03 | comment | added | LSerni | @JustinThyme, Petrarch's phrase is clearly metaphorical. He wrote, They were great men, but placed in the depths. We are small, but placed on the heights, thanks to God. They lived in the dead of night; we live in a bright noonday... I consider that this applies not only to the two authors I have before me, but to all the pagan philosophers [...] whose mind's eyes were blocked by an impenetrable cloud from any vision of the truth. | |
| Jan 16, 2018 at 20:17 | comment | added | Justin Thyme | It could well be interpreted that it was common knowledge AT THE TIME, that it was a literal darkness that descended to start the period, but lost to us through history, and then the term morphed into a metaphorical interpretation we understand it to be today.. | |
| Jan 16, 2018 at 20:11 | comment | added | Justin Thyme | The term 'Dark Ages' is attributed to Petrarch, but what he wrote (translated) was not t he term 'Dark Ages' but that 'they were surrounded by darkness and dense gloom'. Eight hundred years later, we put words into his mouth by saying he must have been speaking metaphorically, But indeed he wrote only 800 years after the fact, and he would have been describing literally what had happened. A great darkness literally DID descend on the land. There would certainly be many historical accounts of this during his time, that have been lost to ours, | |
| Jan 16, 2018 at 19:41 | comment | added | Justin Thyme | @Binary Worrier Citations, please. | |
| Jan 16, 2018 at 17:49 | comment | added | Binary Worrier | This absolutely is not why they are called the Dark Ages. The term 'Dark Ages' was coined by an Italian scholar named Francesco Petrarch. Petrarch, who lived from 1304 to 1374, used this label to describe what he perceived as a lack of quality in the Latin literature of his day. Petrarch - almost certainly - had no knowledge of any eruptions 800 years before his birth, and was describing his own time | |
| Jan 16, 2018 at 17:21 | comment | added | JBH | @Elukka, that insight is why I asked for more info. The phrase "Dark Ages" is historiagraphical, which is a fancy way of saying, it's a name we give the period between the decline of the roman empire and the renaissance wherein Europe experienced low intellectual productivity. However, that there was also a period of actual darkening is an interesting coincidence. | |
| Jan 16, 2018 at 17:12 | comment | added | Elukka | I had to do a double take here. No, the dark ages most certainly weren't called that because it was literally dark. Your article talks about possible volcanic events between 536 and 540 CE, not that the dark ages as a whole were literally dark... and not that they were named as such because of it. | |
| Jan 16, 2018 at 17:10 | comment | added | BornToDoStuff | Heavy volcanic activity not necessarily where the story is focused should provide the heat needed to keep the world from freezing even while blocking so much from the nearby stars but wouldnt it make the rain toxic? The dust storms could make the rain dirty but still drinkable and the odd weather patterns would fit with the rainy/cloudy idea so that could work. | |
| Jan 16, 2018 at 17:09 | comment | added | Justin Thyme | The actual science report is here | |
| Jan 16, 2018 at 17:01 | comment | added | Justin Thyme | See for example The Dark Ages Were Caused By Two Enormous Volcanic Eruptions. Conflict with Christianity, Romans, Celtics, etc. etc. etc. may have contributed to societal ills, but societal upheaval is NOT why they are called the Dark Ages. They were, literally, dark. It shows up in the fossil record around the world. | |
| Jan 16, 2018 at 16:53 | comment | added | JBH | Can you provide a citation for the idea that the Dark Ages were literally darker than at other times? That's interesting and I want to know more. | |
| Jan 16, 2018 at 16:50 | history | answered | Justin Thyme | CC BY-SA 3.0 |